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Does anyone else think it's FF12 time to shine?
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Something I've been thinking. I remember when
Final Fantasy XII initially came out. I remember it pretty well, actually. I loved the game to pieces. Part of the reason was that I'd never touched an MMORPG and had no idea what one played like (I found
Final Fantasy XI interesting back then but couldn't afford the PS2 hard drive and keyboard needed to play the game back then if you didn't have a decent enough PC). I sunk so many hours into the game but ultimately never beat it, as work got in the way. When the remaster of the International version was finally announced, I was ecstatic.
But I remember that FF12 had a pretty divisive response at the time. In the years since, we've had a lot more "real-time" RPGs released on consoles (FF12 was a new thing only insofar as games of its kind were almost entirely PC-exclusive up to that point), and
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn has established a very positive identity built off a lot of similar ideas and aesthetic elements to
Final Fantasy XI and
Final Fantasy XII.
A guy from Square said in some interview or other that he believes FF12 will be better-received today than it was at the time of its release. Does anyone else here think that might be the case? Because I do.
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FFXII is not an MMORPG nor is it real time.
And after the crap that was XIII, no I think if they released another FF with a crappy story like XII has it would not go down very well.
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FFXII gameplay was different but solid. The hunts though imo made the game great. Outside of the Main character Vaan. The rest of the characters where great. Overall I sunk as many or more hours into that game over any othe FF including 7
I didn't like the story or the leveling system. The leveling system makes me angry to this day.
That aside, I really enjoyed watching the critters go about and interact with one another. I thought it was neat that some monsters would prey on others.
Sadly, unless they completely overhaul the leveling/equipment system I'll never play it again. It was much much too frustrating trying to build a character the way you wanted. I wanted to give Vaan swords. That shouldn't have been so freaking hard
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"Don't listen to Vheo's lies!"
@Kupo - It was, however, constantly compared to MMORPGs, and it is, in fact, real time. Not a particularly refined kind of real time, but real time.
I also loved the story, so... that one's a bit subjective.
@ Vheo - The International version did overhaul the leveling system. I think you should look it up. It's called "International Zodiac Job System" (the remaster bears the more sensible title of "The Zodiac Age") and it breaks up the license board into, as the name implies, a job system.
The International version also gives you the ability to directly control your summons and your guest characters, which is also neat-o. Right now the only way to play it in English is emulation, though. The International version was never released in the west before this.
Yeah. I don't pc. 12 had some potential it will ever live up to for me. At least I got the watch Fran's glorious ass as she strutted around in that outfit. So it wasn't all bad. But it was still probably one of the worst final fantasy titles.
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Worst one? Nooooo, that falls to Final Fantasy IX.
It's not real time at all. It's atb just like all the others. The only difference being the gambit system, which may give it the illusion of real time, but it isn't.
Real time would be games like Kingdom Hearts, DMC, and FFXV.
No Verity, IX is one of the best. The worst ones are X-2, XIII-2, and LR. XII is petty close because the characters and story were awful, but the free-roam-ish and the hunts somewhat make up for it. And frankly I enjoy running around beating the crap out of everything in sight without even doing anything.
And anyone who says XII is like an MMO has never played an MMO before.
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I felt combat in IX was awful and slow. Character designs, I felt were ugly and never sat well with me. I suppose the story was alright. It was better than VI anyway. *flame shield on*
I do agree with you on X-2 though, that was just a stupid amount of fan service. OH and TIDUS AND YUNA end up together after all! /slowclap
Actually hated XIII more than XIII-2 and LR. LR was probably my favorite out of the three. Music in XIII was pretty nice though.
*triple edit because I am dumb.
I don't really differentiate combat in the earlier games because honestly it's all the same with different gimmicks.
And IX's gimmick with the whole ability crystals and learning abilities through equipment is my favorite of all of them. If I were to design an RPG I would use that. And the story was great, and Zidane is one of my favorite characters in any game.
I also think 13 was garbage. I was sooo tired of it by the time they let me out of the hallways was done with the game. I gave it away and never looked back. 12 at least I kept for the novelty.
I enjoyed the dress up mechanics of 10-2 but not enough to call it a final fantasy title. It was a knock off.
Kingdom hearts has my favorite battle system ever. It was so satisfying button mashing with intent to beat the tar out of something with a massive fucking key.
As for the XIII series I honestly didn't mind the linearity all that much, at least the first time through since it was still all new. But combine that with a bland story and only okay characters, and I honestly couldn't even play through it a second time (I tried).
XIII-2 I didn't even manage to beat before I gave up. It certainly didn't help that Serah even with what little of her was in XIII I hated her. And already hated the other guy just from the trailers.
I was so over 13 when I found out lightning was the heroine. She's so dull. Snails have more personality. It's like they gave cloud a gender swap and all the sedatives. All my hopes on a strong female heroine were destroyed by her. Lightning was made to be as innoffensive as possible to all the men stuck playing as her, which just annoyed me. Female leads historically suuuuck so why should lightning be any different? Serves me right for hoping.
After all the lightning nonsense, I'm glad to see there remaking it.
VI had an amazing story!
The bad guy actually succeeded in destroying the world! gotta give it to kefka.
And im with kupo that X-2, and XIII (all of em) were the worst IMO
@ Kupo - First of all, what exactly do you think "real time" means?
Second of all, MMORPGs of the time did in fact play quite a bit like FF12. The current popular breed of MMORPG came after World of Warcraft, and FF11 (which FF12 took a lot from) was pre-WoW. However, the MMO comparison stuck most of all because most console gamers at the time weren't terribly familiar with CRPGs, which are a more apt comparison than MMORPGs in several key ways.
Real time = you hit a button and something happens.
Atb = active turn based. As in you hit a button and wait for the bar to fill (or vice versa).
Even if you use the literal meaning of real time in that things play out in real time, XII has the system of pausing combat when you're selecting actions. So it's not real time.
And just because XII takes to an extent the aesthetic of XI doesn't mean they're similar. The combat (which is for all intents and purposes the core element) is nothing alike.
Also WoW came out 2 years before XII did.
And no, it definitely isn't a CRPG. CRPGs are the classic ones like Baldur's gate (and more modern ones like Path of Exile and Divinity Original Sin). Games which are on a computer but use a ruleset more based off tabletop games.
If anything XII would be an open world RPG.
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VI = "amazing" story?
EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
I still remember this game as the one FF game that I sold and didn't keep, but I don't knock things until I try them, and I haven't tried the re-release, so we shall see~♪
It won't be any different gameplay-wise or story-wise from IZJS.
IZJS being International Zodiac Job System. At the beginning of the game (or when characters join, I forget), you have to select a job for every character, which gives them individual license boards and limits their access to abilities and equipment. Besides that (and removing that stupid thing with the loot barrels and the Zodiac spear) it's exactly like the original iirc.
"Real-time" in the context of an RPG has nothing to do with "you hit a button and something happens." It simply means that the action occurs within a constant flow of time as opposed to a stop-and-go turn-based system. ATB is a primitive form of real-time combat, but real-time in the traditional sense refers to systems like FF14, Dragon Age, World of Warcraft, et cetera.
CRPGs have nothing to do with tabletop games. Dragon Age is a CRPG. It barely resembles tabletop.
Also, "the combat is nothing alike."
Except for the part where it's basically the same thing but with a full party and a pause feature.
IX was amazing. You breakfast club loving cunt. I swear to fucking god I'm gonna get you one day.
"It simply means that the action occurs within a constant flow of time"
But there's pauses when you're selecting actions. That's not a constant flow.
"Dragon Age is a CRPG. It barely resembles tabletop."
But it does. It has a similar sort of stat and ability progression as well as the behind the scenes rolls that make everything happen. While a game like FFXII uses plain old RNG.
"Except for the part where it's basically the same thing but with a full party and a pause feature"
So I suppose half the FF games have combat like XI's then.
XI has jobs/sub jobs that determine your role/abilities.
XI has (mostly) predefined roles.
XI has skill chains.
XI has cooldowns.
XI is real time XII is atb.
XII has license board.
XII has gambits.
XII has Quickenings.
Pretty much the rest of it is just hitting things and doing damage to them and that's basically every RPG ever made.
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XI has cooldowns, XII has charge-ups that amount to the same basic principle. ATB is a system that that has one base cooldown time for a player's turn; FF12's system allows you to choose your action, then determines the amount of time you must charge up by the precise action you selected, with spells taking longer than attacks to fire off, items taking no time at all, and so forth. That itself is a moot point to the "real time" aspect since your definition is so skewed.
Since I know you'll nitpick this, I'm aware that ATB isn't a cooldown in the technical sense, but rather a charge-up. Functionally that hardly matters; it's a period of time after acting that you have to wait until you act.
Also, the version of FF12 we're getting in the remaster has a job system, which I've already said, so... that point's moot.
I'm pulling the Fran card. They better not eff that up. *drops the mic and leaves the blog*
The only real difference between a cooldown and FF12's system is that in FF12, only one charge-up happens at a time, whereas with a true cooldown system, all actions currently on cooldown are ticking down while you're doing other things. But FF12's cooldown system was designed to ensure that you couldn't use your better skills frequently, to limit the usefulness of a single player running solo. That's an archaic MMO design element in and of itself, and wouldn't make sense in FF12.
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LMAO Bucket. Go pound sand.
So you're saying Black Mage in XIV has nothing but cooldowns? Casting and cooldowns are completely different. Casting = time to cast an ability before using it. Cooldown = time an ability must cool down after it has been used. And again I don't know how many times I have to say this: XI ISN'T ATB.
And the job systems in IZJS and XI are so different they're hardly comparable beyond saying they both have jobs.
I'm not going to argue with someone who moves the goal posts from FF11, which was made before FF12, to FF14, which was made years and years after. I'm not going to argue with someone who's so determined to be right that he puts words in someone's mouth, either. Get dunked on if that's how you want to play. I'm done.
"FF12's system allows you to choose your action, then determines the amount of time you must charge up by the precise action you selected"
So that's not how XIV works? Damn then I clearly have been playing wrong.
We were talking about FF12 as compared to MMOs released before it, yes? That would logically excluse FF14.
I probably should have just pointed out that your stupid definition of "real-time" excludes the entire RTS genre, which has "real-time" in its name, instead of showing your respect and taking you seriously. But whatever. Keep living by your own custom-made dictionary. It guarantees you'll be a riot at parties, if nothing else, and that's always a plus.
*exclude
And edit button, an edit button, my kingdom for an edit button...
...That's "an" edit button. Geh.
RTS games don't pause the game while you're selecting what to do. XII does. RTS games also have things happen immediately when you hit buttons.
"RTS games don't pause the game while you're selecting what to do. XII does. RTS games also have things happen immediately when you hit buttons."
That's what "Active" mode is for.
And no, we were only talking about comparing XII to XI. But your attempt to claim that the atb/casting system is the same as a cooldown would generally include all FF games that use the atb system. The only way XII's differs from other atb systems is that the atb gauge charges after you select an action, but it's still atb.
I only used XIV as an example because it would be easiest to show how casting and cooldowns are different.
I said it was the same principle. I don't care whether it's exactly the same. You shouldn't, either. If everyone based their definitions on what's "exactly the same" each genre would have exactly one game in it and nothing else.
ATB is real-time, whether you like it or not. It was designed to inject a real-time element into turn-based play with the player-optional element of making it more turn-based ("Wait" mode) or more truly real-time if the player is confident in their skills ("Active").
The very fact that it has an active and a wait mode just more proves my point. And I would assume most people play on wait.
And even in active mode things don't happen immediately.
The technical term for FF12's system was actually ADB, Active Dimension Battle, to signify that positioning was also now a real-time element, but no one remembers that because it was actually a pretty poor man's system. International did a BIT more with AOE attacks (the basic Thunder spell has a reduced damage effect on other nearby enemies, for instance), but we never got that one, so... meh.
It's called atb, as in active turn based. Not "active or turn based if you have it on wait". The atb gauge itself adds an element of turn based. Thus making it not real time.
Whether the option was commonly used it moot. Tou're not even focusing on the correct point. "Immediately" is not the problem. The flaw with ATB's approach to real time was lack of simultaneous turn-taking--it always lets one animation play out at a time, no more. But even some other games that are considered "real-time" just disguise that by having actions trigger very quickly one after the other in order. This is why I say that ATB was "primitive."
It would only be a flaw if they were trying to make it real time, which they weren't. Trying to make it *feel* more real time maybe, but they certainly weren't trying to make a real time combat system.
And uh... it's called Active Time Battle.
Actually FF12 had a different name: Active Dimension Battle. But that was obviously just to indicate that it was ATB with movement and positioning as a major point of change.
From what I was told, comic con had a set up of 12 hd so... may get your wish soon. As for my opinion, I liked some of the characters. But ultimately never finished the game due to getting lost and not being interested in finding the right way. Might sum it up I guess lol
Tellingly, the name Active Time Battle was still used in FF12, which was realtime in the very modern sense of "everything happens all at once with no waiting for animations to play out" and as such, the timing of your attacks do come into play.
FFX-2 also played with that by having timing-based combo abilities and additional casting times for some skills.
It's already been confirmed, Esper. For 2017 I believe (at least the western release).
Active time battle, active turn based, whatever. It still has turn based elements regardless of the name.
"The name Active Time battle was still used in FF13"
MY KINGDOM. FOR AN EDIT BUTTON.
Let's not even talk about the combat system in XIII.
Auto battle Auto battle Auto battle Auto battle Auto battle Auto battle Auto battle Auto battle Auto battle, Yay I won!
See, Kupo, this is why I say you're playing by your own dictionary. "It has elements of this" has never and will never be an invalidation of what something is. A shooter with RPG elements is still a shooter. And RPG with shooter elements is still an RPG. A real-time system with turn-based elements is still real-time. A turn-based system with real-time elements is still turn-based.
Auto battle is also not relevant to the point: it was real-time.
You seem to think two things that coexist in the same system are mutually exclusive and contradictory, though. I don't understand that. Hybrids are a thing.
There are some things that can't coexist though. Real time has no gray area. Either something is real time or it isn't. And putting in commands and waiting for a meter to fill or vice versa isn't real time.
A meter is just a timer, Kupo. Real-time has nothing to do with whether you put in commands and then have to wait. It simply means "stuff happens in real time" in the sense that timing and duration are considered in a dynamic sense. The extent to which that matters varies from game to game, but something like Baldur's Gate back in the day still had timers and turn-orders playing out invisibly in the background to determine when things happened. This is considered real-time.
And regardless of whether or not it is real time, saying XII's battle system is like XI's simply because you select actions and wait for them to go off is like saying any other game like that took it from XI, when in fact in XII's case it borrows more from atb than XI.
Also as I'm sure you noticed since I'm sure you were looking at the FF wiki battle systems page, XI is under the category of "real time". And guess what isn't under that category? XII.
Games like Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age also pause while you are selecting what to do. So no that is not real time.
I said FF12 was like FF11 in a general sense, in that it borrowed from more than just the battle system. You're kind of overstating one aspect of what I said there. 12's world structure, monsters, and so on took a lot from 11, although the game was more segmented for technical reasons (they wanted it to look prettier than 11 in general and large areas on the PS2 tend to mean blander environments). The battles were more comparable to CRPGs, as I said, but FF11's combat was pretty basic and...
...MMO combat takes its roots from CRPGs to begin with.
Which in turn influenced how modern CRPGs handle a lot of things, actually.
And you're kind of wrong about that. Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age operate on hotkeys. It's your choice to pause the game if you want, but selecting actions in real-time is possible and sometimes you'll end up doing it without thinking.
FFXI doesn't prevent you from pausing because that's necessary for real-time. It prevents you from pausing because it's an online multiplayer game.
And I don't need a wiki to tell me stuff. I read the manuals for the games I buy.
It may be like XI in things like that, but that wouldn't make it like an MMO. More like an open world game like I already said. The only thing that would make it more MMO-ish is that multiple characters means you can have them take on more MMO-ish roles, like having one character dedicated to healing or something.
MMOs do take the party system from CRPGs, but the damage calculation is generally a lot bigger numbers, and I'm not sure if early MMOs had things like saving throws or casting throws.
"FFXI doesn't prevent you from pausing because that's necessary for real-time. It prevents you from pausing because it's an online multiplayer game"
But it prevents you from pausing nonetheless.
You, uh... don't really understand what I'm saying.
FF12 got flack for being an "offline MMO" at the time. The term was derogatory--and reductive. I even said that a large part of why it was a complaint is that a lot of console players just weren't used to the gameplay type in a single-player context (CRPGs), even though PC RPG fans would recognize it as common on their platform.
The other details of CRPGs are a bit less relevant, because--
--the actual rules system used for individual CRPGs eventually did mellow out, and really only existed because a lot of them tried to mimic tabletop games closely. Dice roles for effects aren't unique to CRPGs (basically any numbers-based RPG uses them) but were run using odds to emulate actual dice, with those dice made known to the player, in CRPGs of the time. JRPGs tended to just show you stats and leave it at that.
"But it prevents you from pausing nonetheless."
So does Hearthstone.
Exactly, CRPGs try to mimic tabletop games. As far as having low rolls to mimic dice. XII doesn't do that, its rolls are much larger (as any RPG with randomness has rolls). The only element it borrows from most CRPGs is the party system, which is not at all what defines a CRPG, and is not unique to CRPGs.
"So does Hearthstone."
There's a difference between pausing to let you select what to do (as Hearthstone in a sense does do, only with a time limit), and pausing the game entirely.
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This was a great read.
You're doing that thing again where you fixate on a detail that has nothing to do with the comparison being made. FF12 is like a CRPG in a superficial sense: control, combat, and so on. The numbers are the only thing that's different, and when you balance them out, numbers are just a measuring stick. You might as well called FF12 "Fahrenheit" and CRPGs "Celsius." Some CRPGs mimicked tabletop games more closely--Baldur's Gate did that--but in ways that weren't genre-universal.
"There's a difference between pausing to let you select what to do (as Hearthstone in a sense does do, only with a time limit), and pausing the game entirely."
That difference is "one is a headache for the other player, one is not." It's also literally impossible to "pause" in an MMO. The server is where the gameplay flow happens. Your computer reflects what the server tells it is happening. You can't pause the server without pausing everyone else on it.
That is the reason FF11 doesn't pause.
But those elements are not unique to CRPGs. Also they're not even that similar.
Controls:
XII: You control the movement of one character at a time while the AI randomly moves the other two (and your own as well if you're using gambit iirc)
CRPGs: All movement is done by the player for all characters at all times.
Combat:
XII: Gambits that automatically determine what characters do while you're not controlling them.
CRPGs: Control everything for every character.
More like "CRPGs: Control everything for every character when your AI option isn't enough." You could even write AI scripts in the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale games, although it wasn't half as convenient as Gambits or the AI system in Dragon Age since you had to actually... write the script and select it in-game.
The control problem was entirely based on the controller's limitations vs. keyboard-and-mouse. FF12 and Dragon Age: Origins both had limited controls. It wasn't until...
"That difference is "one is a headache for the other player, one is not." "
That doesn't change the fact that Hearthstone does essentially have pauses for your turn. In the same sense that while games like Baldur's Gate and atb FF games "pause" when you're selecting actions but the game clock still runs. While an overall pause of the entire game wouldn't allow you to do anything in-game and also stops the game clock.
...I want to say, Dragon Age II, that BioWare managed to implement a system that played identically on PC and consoles, but this came at the expense of the PC version's flexibility compared to Origins on PC.
Origins on consoles did have a MUCH better interface than FF12 did. But it also lowered its difficulty to compensate for poorer party control.
"write the script and select it in-game"
With the proper know-how and software you could essentially make any game behave any way you wanted it to. That doesn't make them similar.
It was an actual built-in function of the game, and the game came with several basic AI scripts by default. BioWare later re-implemented a more user-friendly version of this idea with Dragon Age's AI system, which is kind of like Gambits except you have all conditions/actions without having to buy them.
Baldur's Gate is often played stop-and-go by players who micromanage, but it's easy enough to do with minimal pausing.
Those weren't the only CRPGs though. And you still have the option of not using it, and I doubt the game was designed with a very heavy use of AI scripting in mind. They still wanted you to control every character.
While XII pretty much forces you to use gambits unless you want to go through the headache of constantly switching through all of your characters.
They wanted you to control every character through a mix of skillful AI use, quick mouse-selection, pausing for the tighter tactical corners you'd get caught in, and hotkey use. The problem is, that couldn't be done on a controller. As a result, Origins on PC has exactly the same problem FF12 does: switching between characters in a time-consuming way every time you want to micromanage a bit. You rely a lot more on AI there, too.
With Origins, party control is a lot more freeform. You can pull back the camera. Select characters by clicking their icons. Have a larger number of hotkeys. The works.
PC was just better for bringing out the full range of what this kind of gameplay could do. FF12 had to be built for consoles. FF11 had the same limitations to work with, but it paced itself slower and you only controlled one character. It translated better.
"Origins on console has exactly the same problem."
...My kingdom for an edit button...
Come to think of it, Knights of the Old Republic has similar issues, but since it was built with those limitations in mind, it has a good interface for console play, unlike FF12 which just has vertical menus that take ages to navigate later on when you have more skills.
Unfortunately, it's kind of a pain to play with keyboard and mouse compared to actual PC-focused CRPGs. Still has a lot of the trappings of the genre, though, even tabletop-like dice rolls that the game tells you of.
I don't actually know whether KotOR was built for both platforms simultaneously like Origins was, though. So it may not qualify as "CRPG" in the strictest sense.
Even if it's just different because of console limitations, it's still different.
Sure you could say that people didn't like XII because they didn't like or understand the gambit system, but you couldn't say that it was because they weren't used to games like Baldur's Gate, because they're very different from a gameplay standpoint, even if it's just because XII is a console game.
Not very different at all, really, but it was one of the earliest instances of a JRPG adopting CRPG elements, which wasn't a big trend back then but would later be done (better) by games like Xenoblade Chronicles, White Knight Chronicles, and probably some others. Arguing that it's different is one thing--"it's different" doesn't mean the influence wasn't there.
I didn't say people "didn't like XII" because of that, just that they didn't recognize it.
Which is why instead of being constructive and talking about how the system was done worse and was limited on consoles, they reductively called it an "offline MMORPG."
See what I'm trying to say?
It's important to remember that console gamers and PC gamers were a much more separate crowd back then. I myself didn't get into PC games until I was older and could afford my own computer.
It's kind of the same deal as... Heavy Rain. People talked about how revolutionary it was. Hardly anyone mentioned that it was part of a genre that had been in existence on PCs since the DOS days. People didn't recognize the point-and-click adventure game because they were more accustomed to genres commonly seen on consoles.
Nowadays, Telltale games are mainstream. CRPGs are being released multiplatform. WRPGs in general are more "in."
Well that does make more sense, apparently I misread it. Though I personally would still think it a stretch to compare it to an MMO even with the slower pace of older MMOs.
I hate Telltale games.
It IS a stretch but I can see the similarities, and the inclusion of a "clan" you could join did evoke feelings of guilds in MMOs. It was just the first comparison people jumped to. The average joe is gonna sum it up the best way they know how, and a lot of folks didn't know CRPG conventions back then.
The PC/console crowd only started to merge during the PS3/360 era. They were pretty isolated from each other before that.
